Curse

thedarkmarine · May 09, 2009, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

If swearing is against the rules then ANet marketted GW under the Teen rating as a form of fraud. The Teen rating underwhich it is marketed specifically indicates both Crude Humor and Strong Language are to be expected in the game. This is true both under the ESRB and under PEGI. This is not a game for little children. It is a game with sexual suggestion, drunken stupors, monsters whose names contain strong language and must be filtered out (that pesky Cleric, and the Guild Leader in Panjiang whose name is always filtered out come to mind), etc.

You really have no idea about what you're talking about, do you. Did the Wachowski's commit fraud by not including nudity in The Matrix? While you're thinking about that one, you might also want to check GW's rating on your ESRB.

A11Eur0 · May 09, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

LOL - I did enjoy that, thanks.

Although it goes way off my analogy, there is no way to leave the chat filter off from the 'employee' point of view. The breakroom door (chat filter) would be opened by the customer, which would be the customers fault. I'd like to see you explain how MY chat filter can be left off by YOU.

You totally misunderstood what I was saying. If YOU, as the customer, get out of YOUR SEAT and walk into MY BREAKROOM where you have no business being, that is akin to YOU going into YOUR OPTIONS MENU and turning off the filter. You know there is going to be language spoken in that room that isn't allowed in the general dining/service area, yet you walk in there anyway, then get all upset about what you weren't supposed to hear anyway.

Saying you know that the person is saying a swear because you see the **** so you get offended anyway is ridiculous too. If I spill a drink on your table while serving you and say "SHOOT!", when in fact I wanted to say "SHIT!" but respected you by choosing an alternative, or the more appropriate analogy of walking into the back room and getting the frustrations out there without having you hear anything, would you get offended then? You KNOW I'm back there possibly cursing up a storm, do you walk into the breakroom with your tape recorder and play it back for the boss?
You can't see the word, you can't hear the word, in essence the word doesn't exist. Getting upset because a person chooses to express their emotions a certain way, when you can't see/hear that way, that's not the person's fault, it's yours. Take responsibility for your own actions, don't rely on the powers that be to live your life and protect you. One of these days you're going to have to step into the real world and realize that not everyone sees things the way you do, so there's no point in stressing over how they manage to get through their day...in the end, whinging and crying about what someone does to relieve their own stress only causes them MORE stress which results in MORE swearing and negativity towards you. How about next time you hear/see someone swearing, you should realize this and let them deal with their issues or get their emotions out...it would make everything much better for everyone. Stop calling on people to babysit you by pointing fingers at the "rule breakers" when they're really not hurting anyone who doesn't want to be hurt.

Abedeus · May 09, 2009, 08:01 AM // 08:01

I think there is a rule somewhere to keep polite. Game is 12+, so swears should generally be avoided.

Yeah, I do swear in-game. But I try not to swear when I criticize other people.

Wish Swiftdeath · May 09, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

At least there isn't a report function on vent

thedarkmarine · May 09, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

You totally misunderstood what I was saying. If YOU, as the customer, get out of YOUR SEAT and walk into MY BREAKROOM where you have no business being, that is akin to YOU going into YOUR OPTIONS MENU and turning off the filter. You know there is going to be language spoken in that room that isn't allowed in the general dining/service area, yet you walk in there anyway, then get all upset about what you weren't supposed to hear anyway.

Saying you know that the person is saying a swear because you see the **** so you get offended anyway is ridiculous too. If I spill a drink on your table while serving you and say "SHOOT!", when in fact I wanted to say "SHIT!" but respected you by choosing an alternative, or the more appropriate analogy of walking into the back room and getting the frustrations out there without having you hear anything, would you get offended then? You KNOW I'm back there possibly cursing up a storm, do you walk into the breakroom with your tape recorder and play it back for the boss?
You can't see the word, you can't hear the word, in essence the word doesn't exist. Getting upset because a person chooses to express their emotions a certain way, when you can't see/hear that way, that's not the person's fault, it's yours. Take responsibility for your own actions, don't rely on the powers that be to live your life and protect you. One of these days you're going to have to step into the real world and realize that not everyone sees things the way you do, so there's no point in stressing over how they manage to get through their day...in the end, whinging and crying about what someone does to relieve their own stress only causes them MORE stress which results in MORE swearing and negativity towards you. How about next time you hear/see someone swearing, you should realize this and let them deal with their issues or get their emotions out...it would make everything much better for everyone. Stop calling on people to babysit you by pointing fingers at the "rule breakers" when they're really not hurting anyone who doesn't want to be hurt.

You keep on spewing this thing about "personal responsibility" but yet lack the decency for some simple self control? Why don't you take some personal responsibility and learn to tame your tongue?

JoeKnowMo · May 09, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

If you're going to swear in-game, do it like Moroney: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GVCgTFw2Qk

A11Eur0 · May 09, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

You keep on spewing this thing about "personal responsibility" but yet lack the decency for some simple self control? Why don't you take some personal responsibility and learn to tame your tongue?

If you were to read back, you'd see that I don't feel the need to "tame my tongue" because I don't feel that these words should merit any special treatment or taboo. It has nothing to do with self control. For the last time: if you don't like it, turn the filter back on. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF. If you don't want to see it, don't put YOURSELF into the position to see it. Is that such a hard concept to grasp? You actively remove the filter then get all upset when you see the words the filter is designed to block? That's laughable. That's like suing BiC for burns after one of their lighters blew up in your face while you were staring at it in the lit fireplace.

HawkofStorms · May 09, 2009, 05:39 PM // 17:39

And again A11Eur0, thank you for missing the point. This person was banned for deliberating bypassing the filter and trying to swear around.

I am so sick of the same 2-4 people on guru (A11Eur0 and Fitz being 2 of them) arguing the same thing over and over again whenever censorship of violent and derogatory language comes up, and completely ignoring the points brought up to counter them (mainly that, A.net, as a private corporation is legally allowed to set up whatever censorship policy they want and that government regulation allows for limitations, "free speech" has always been limited to the extent to protect the public at large (from threats of violence, discrimination, bigotry, etc)).

I'm not having this argument again. You didn't listen the first time, you didn't listen the 18th time. What's going to be different now?

A11Eur0 · May 09, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

And again A11Eur0, thank you for missing the point. This person was banned for deliberating bypassing the filter and trying to swear around.

I am so sick of the same 2-4 people on guru (A11Eur0 and Fitz being 2 of them) arguing the same thing over and over again whenever censorship of violent and derogatory language comes up, and completely ignoring the points brought up to counter them (mainly that, A.net, as a private corporation is legally allowed to set up whatever censorship policy they want and that government regulation allows for limitations, "free speech" has always been limited to the extent to protect the public at large (from threats of violence, discrimination, bigotry, etc)).

I'm not having this argument again. You didn't listen the first time, you didn't listen the 18th time. What's going to be different now?

It doesn't matter any more what the OP did or didn't do. The discussion has evolved to general swearing. I've also made the point in the past that bypassing the filter should indeed be punishable, but some puritans on here seem to think that no single ounce of responsibility falls on those who actively turn their filters off then complain about seeing what it's meant to block.

I'll make one more analogy: it's like walking onto a well-posted nude beach completely hidden from the public, then complaining about rampant indecency. If you don't want to see public nudity, don't walk past all those "nude beach" warning signs and fences.

MagmaRed · May 09, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

I'll make one more analogy: it's like walking onto a well-posted nude beach completely hidden from the public, then complaining about rampant indecency. If you don't want to see public nudity, don't walk past all those "nude beach" warning signs and fences.

Sadly this is a great example, but you have it backwards. Anet has posted signs for people about swearing (EULA), and it is not allowed. The problem is that people are swearing anyway. The filter is not there to allow people to swear, but to protect the people who do not want to see it from the people who break the rules. So by your analogy, the beach is a public beach without allowing people to go nude, yet people are still coming to the beach in the buff.

I'll say it again, because you seem to have missed me saying it all the other times I did.

The chat filter is not there to allow people to swear freely, but to protect people who don't want to see it when other people break the rules.

Fril Estelin · May 09, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

If you're going to swear in-game, do it like Moroney: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GVCgTFw2Qk

I much prefer French's finesse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfnmkgmUDW4

Way to make a counter-argument to my own point ;P

Doofledust · May 09, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

The chat filter informs the player which words are not allowed to be used in game.

If you turn it off you are in effect saying that you don't care to know which words are considered offensive/rude/swearing/whatever. It can also be used as MagmaRed says to shield others from seeing those words.

Fitz Rinley · May 09, 2009, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Except online content created by other users is not rated. That little disclaimer is put on every single video game's ESRB.

Now, you clearly don't know enough about the law to pull some random BS fraud claim out of your butt. If you don't know what you are talking about, then shut up.

You are correct on one point, statements made by live interactants in an MMO are not pre-rated by the developers of a game - however the on-line content is:

Quote:

TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

When one purchases a game marketted with this rating they understand there is permission for crude humor and strong langauge. They are told that this May happen explicitly by the marketing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

While you're thinking about that one, you might also want to check GW's rating on your ESRB.

As you can see, and if you had observed other threads where this kind of issue has been discussed - like their imbecillic naming policy, I am quite aware of the ESRB and I am also familiar with PEGI:

Quote:

PEGI 12+ - Videogames that show violence of a slightly more graphic nature towards fantasy character and/or non graphic violence towards human-looking characters or recognisable animals, as well as videogames that show nudity of a slightly more graphic nature would fall in this age category. Any bad language in this category must be mild and fall short of sexual expletives.

In otherwords, like country music, you just can't say the F-word, to quote Hank Jr.

There are throughout the game referrences about which people could take offense. The Damned Cleric is marked out by the filter in Kryta. Captain Quimang has part of his name filtered out in Panjiang. If you mispell successful with only one c, then it will have part of the word filtered out as a French swear word. Well, because so many of us are fluent in French slang in the United States. But with GW help, we can soon learn the slang of the entire world.

In point of fact, we will know nothing of how to communicate in the foreign languages of the 92 other nations of the UN - but we will in fact all know that Suka is Polish for a female, female dog, or police car. We will all know that Suce and Bite are French for sexual acts of somekind. We will be able to thank the prudes insisting upon the filtering of names, words, and letters innocent in our own languages for increasing the amount of swearing our children can accomplish world wide in every language known to man.

So, while those who are too lazy to turn on their filter and "Be not offended for a word" get their juices flowing so they can hate their neighbor ensure the education of others in the language of the profligate, the rest of us sinning swearing soldiers will continue to say shut up and abide by your advertising.

haggus71 · May 10, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoondockSaint

Freedom of speech does not give you a right to be a jackass. Also as indie posted earlier, you can still say some awful things that will not be caught in the chat filter.

I am getting tired of people using "freedom of speech" as an excuse to say whatever the hell they want. It does not work in the real world that way so why do you think it would work online? You cannot shout fire in a crowded place if there is not one and not expect to be punished. I hate a politically correct socity, but I would also hate a society that would allow anyone to say whatever they wanted.

Also a personal note, I've noticed that the people that use all this dirty language are also the ones that get very upset when you suggest they not bring say a rez sig to AB. You are entitled to your own opinions NOT YOUR OWN FACTS.

But again I guess it is just a bunch of kids that are giving the whole community a bad rap.

Well, Western Europe and a lot of East Asian countries realize that balance is the key. We had that till corporations run by the Hippie generation, who idolize Peter Pan and think they can be young forever, started to idolize adolescents and 'tweeners for their buying prowess. Now we take our cue from the Retard Generation.

Don't forget: Germany in the late 20s and early 30s allowed political parties to say anything they wanted...and Hitler took good advantage of that. Freedom without responsibility is immaturity.

Good times.

pumpkin pie · May 10, 2009, 03:53 AM // 03:53

GW's gamescape belongs to everyone who purchase the game and are allow to log in to play.

turning off chat filter is not going into someones room or purposely recording someone swearing, we are all in the place that we had to be. THERE IS NO SEPERATE ROOM, THE GAME IS A SHARE EXPERIENCE.

Fitz Rinley · May 10, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

No you are not. Neither of them have rated Guild Wars for bad language. Violence, yes, but not language.

The public expectation is that the rating stands for the entirety of what the rating covers, not that the people playing get to pick this portion from the AO, this piece from the EC, and that section over there from T - so lets rate it a Teen. When you rate it Teen shut up and stay Teen. Don't play little head games of: Well, we are Teen when we mean violence and alcohol, but we are kindergartners in case someone has kids so don't anyone use a bad word, stick with "I gotta go peepee," so you won't offend anyone who really wanted to buy a G rated game.

thedarkmarine · May 10, 2009, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

The public expectation is that the rating stands for the entirety of what the rating covers, not that the people playing get to pick this portion from the AO, this piece from the EC, and that section over there from T - so lets rate it a Teen. When you rate it Teen shut up and stay Teen. Don't play little head games of: Well, we are Teen when we mean violence and alcohol, but we are kindergartners in case someone has kids so don't anyone use a bad word, stick with "I gotta go peepee," so you won't offend anyone who really wanted to buy a G rated game.

Thank you, again, for proving that you know nothing about the rating system. Public expectation has nothing to do with it. You have no argument. Stop grasping at straws. Go visit the websites of the organizations you think you know so much about.

Fitz Rinley · May 10, 2009, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

Thank you, again, for proving that you know nothing about the rating system. Public expectation has nothing to do with it. You have no argument. Stop grasping at straws.

It is not grasping at straws. The definitions as provided are those the public can expect and ought to expect. It is the same as what is comparable to prurient standard. An innuendo by nature is not prurient without overt salacious affectation, but once it becomes overt it ceases to be innuendo doesn't it. At that point it changes to something bawdy, something blatant and is no longer merely innuendo.

What you want the ESRB to mean is that You can choose violence and use kindergarten language. If you are not an American you should be, this is a typical stand for my countrymen. They are very prudish about sex and language while indulgent on alcohol, dark-side capitalism, and violence. This is comparable to those across the pond who tend to be the opposite. And ofcourse, individuals may vary while the general average of the group remains so describable. Also, individuals may vary while alone, and then conform to group-think when a brick in the wall.

I am not culturally restricted to picking what I like out of a definition merely because it suits my sensibilities. The parameters of the definition Teen are above Everyone 10+ and below Mature:

EVERYONE 10+
Titles rated E10+ (Everyone 10 and older) have content that may be suitable for ages 10 and older. Titles in this category may contain more cartoon, fantasy or mild violence, mild language and/or minimal suggestive themes.

TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

When I got my only 72 hour ban I used strong language because I was fully pissed. I used it because no one was listening to "nice language." ANet did not care to hear nice language. It was not until I got banned that anyone bothered to actually look at the problem, and then lie to me about it. (They can Never convince me that since the release of factions they are incapable of repeating the bugs listed in wiki that result in repeated NPC glitching on mapping tiles. Statements that in almost 3 years of testing they have never been able to get Togo, Mhenlo, Danika, and Koris Deeprunner to glitch and remain in place when I spent 4 hours with Togo doing nothing but getting stuck repeatedly in the same mission are Unbelievable to me. I have had all 4 of those NPCs glitch on more than one occasion and they are listed in Wiki as having this Bug that ANet does not want to reproduce.) I did not use Infrequent Strong Language, I used massive intentional screaming attention getting devices. It should not be possible for players to spend hours executing tactics and skills flawlessly to repeatedly lose the missions because the game fails to work.

I deserved the ban for exceeding the Infrequent use. No one should be banned for being within that caveat. Crude humor, even in names should be expected - especially from those whose hormones are as stable as a nuclear meltdown. However, there are lines that cross from crude to crass. NC West is perfectly right to correct crass behavior. They ought also to tell people who are overly sensitive to toughen up and deal with others. A friend was trying to get some boys out of his way, they were playing in the street he was trying to drive down. He knew them very well, they are good friends. When he finally got to pass by he stuck his tongue out at them, in fun. Some girls passing by turned in a report for sexual assault. GW contributes to this kind of idiocy by teaching bad judgement and over sensitivity. Only when these people leave the game, it is real lives they will destroy, not just a gaming account.

crass =
So crude and unrefined as to be lacking in discrimination and sensibility.

crude =
1. Being in an unrefined or natural state; raw.
2. Lacking tact or taste; blunt or offensive: a crude, mannerless oaf; a crude remark.
3. Characterized by uncultured simplicity; lacking in sophistication or subtlety: had only a crude notion of how a computer works.
4. Not carefully or skillfully made; rough: a quick, crude sketch.
5. Undisguised or unadorned; plain: must face the crude truth.
6. Statistics In an unanalyzed form; not adjusted to allow for related circumstances or data.
7. Archaic Unripe or immature.

The problem is that those of you claiming to be so well educated in legal and moral standards have apparently skipped basic American. The standard of the ESRB for Teen rating is Crude Humor and Infrequent Strong Language. Those playing should expect this in Teen rated games and either not play or use the filter provided. This is the standard defined in the rating. It is not the standard below it nor the one above it. You do not pick which parts out of the other sections you want to apply and mix and match. You stay within the rating. If GW wants to be a childrens game then they should be rated EC or E meaning no strong language of any kind.

The chat filter is there so that those of you who want additional assistance being in the world but not of it may use it as a shield. It is there for your convenience. The rating is there to communicate to all of us what we can expect. If it says Teen it does not meen Early Childhood conversation modes only, but please slaughter hearty me five year olds, +500 points for the first colostomy for those under 6 who can use the correct spelling...

Also, Dark Marine, what you fail to recognise is this is my degreed area: Public Relations. I have been to the sites. I did read them. I also understand the reality of Communications and Language for what it means. Intentions have no value. Laws are not written to be comprehensible for a reason, they are written to be accurate. The ESRB communicates a standard as permissable to the public, as an expectation by which they May operate and anticipate to act and be acted upon. One does not buy an AO and expect behavior of a lesser standard. Nor does one buy a T-rating and expect EC behavior.

Doofledust · May 10, 2009, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I am not culturally restricted to picking what I like out of a definition merely because it suits my sensibilities. The parameters of the definition Teen are above Everyone 10+ and below Mature:

EVERYONE 10+
Titles rated E10+ (Everyone 10 and older) have content that may be suitable for ages 10 and older. Titles in this category may contain more cartoon, fantasy or mild violence, mild language and/or minimal suggestive themes.

TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

my emphasis.

It is the content of the game, not the players, that is rated. It also may or may not contain any of the quoted content. I don't think I've seen any blood in Guild Wars nor can I remember any crude humour that wasn't player created. Male warriors in their skivvies humping female ele's in their lingerie don't count as it's player created.
The filter lets you the player know which words are allowed in the game. Dropping the filter does not mean you are allowed to use those words, just that you don't mind seeing them on-screen, or that you want to see what they are so that you can report the user.

thedarkmarine · May 10, 2009, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

It is not grasping at straws. The definitions as provided are those the public can expect and ought to expect. It is the same as what is comparable to prurient standard. An innuendo by nature is not prurient without overt salacious affectation, but once it becomes overt it ceases to be innuendo doesn't it. At that point it changes to something bawdy, something blatant and is no longer merely innuendo.

What you want the ESRB to mean is that You can choose violence and use kindergarten language. If you are not an American you should be, this is a typical stand for my countrymen. They are very prudish about sex and language while indulgent on alcohol, dark-side capitalism, and violence. This is comparable to those across the pond who tend to be the opposite. And ofcourse, individuals may vary while the general average of the group remains so describable. Also, individuals may vary while alone, and then conform to group-think when a brick in the wall.

I am not culturally restricted to picking what I like out of a definition merely because it suits my sensibilities. The parameters of the definition Teen are above Everyone 10+ and below Mature:

EVERYONE 10+
Titles rated E10+ (Everyone 10 and older) have content that may be suitable for ages 10 and older. Titles in this category may contain more cartoon, fantasy or mild violence, mild language and/or minimal suggestive themes.

TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

<Insert rant about how people should adjust their standards to fit him and a red herring sob story.>

Here. I'll copy and paste for you since you. You clearly are lying through your teeth about visiting the sites.

From the ESRB:
Guild Wars NC Soft Teen Use of Alcohol, Violence
Guild Wars Bonus Mission Pack ArenaNet Teen Animated Blood, Mild Suggestive Themes, Violence
Guild Wars: Eye of the North ArenaNet Teen Mild Suggestive Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence
Guild Wars Nightfall ArenaNet Teen Use of Alcohol, Violence
Guild Wars Factions ArenaNet Teen Suggestive Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence

From the PEGI:
GUILD WARS EYE OF THE NORTH 12+ Game contains depictions of violence
GUILD WARS FACTIONS 11+/12+ Game contains depictions of violence
Guild Wars Nightfall 11+/12+ Game contains depictions of violence
Guild Wars Prophecies 12+ Game contains depictions of violence

For more clarification, please refer to Doofledust's post. I don't think you know what may means.